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延dan forth到sheppeard是省府的提议,福特一直要延sheppard。当然自由党也是为了选票,但至少从客流量数据还有依可循。就这一条,联邦+省府的钱都不够,大家又不想加税,就别说其他地方再挖洞了。

轻轨还是地铁还是要看density,大家不愿意densify不愿意放弃大房子不愿意放弃开车就麻烦(运营亏损太多),而这基本上这就是国人的北美梦。Ctrain在calgary,RER在巴黎,S-Bahn在柏林,包括LA,Boston等新起的交通干线都是利用地面轨,更别说中北欧了。欧美当今的人力物力政策的成本使得建地铁太昂贵了。当然能做到grade separate更好,所以JT的方案有他的价值。

中国式的建地铁速度自然好,但那是,一基于中国式不顾一切的GDP至上发展模式,不用理会各级政府负债,二中国大城市人就真有那么多,这些在加拿大都是不可能的现实。

多伦多地铁除了长度,问题多了去了。信号自动化,union需要扩容,blooor需要扩容, 需要自动门(每年都有十多人自杀),需要presto电子化(以干掉那些在门口睡觉的老头),需要解决终点调度问题(在kennedy站尤其严重)。前两项TTC在做,其他动作很慢,钱啊,politics啊,都是需要负责任的政客下功夫。喊口号容易,真正面对问题才难。包括有选票的选民。
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Replies, comments and Discussions:

  • 枫下茶话 / 政治经济 / 【真知灼见】:多数人支持发展地铁,福特听民意支持地铁, 所以人民选他当市长. 庄得利的地上地铁(“聪明路轨”) 还有他的水上巴士那才是天大的笑话 -winwin12(123); 15:32 (#8966236@0)
    • 水上巴士是什么咚咚?
      • John Tory floats 【water taxi】 idea to beat gridlock
    • 福特支持地铁。。。问题是从什么时候开始支持的?现在修了吗?喊空口号没用。。。他任期没修。。。
      • One thing at a time. Let's give him time.
        • 四年又四年?探长你在玩无间道么?看看福特四年地铁上的“政绩”。。。
          本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛说实在的,福特在地铁上的所作所为才是真正让我彻底改变立场。
          竞选时他说,多伦多没有收入问题,只有支出问题,可以不花纳税人一分钱就靠企业的投资建地铁(延sheppard的)。这好像太美好了,当然选前我愿意give him benefit of doubt。

          那他上台后干了什么呢。立马砍掉transit city,还没考虑要赔bombadia及其他contract多少钱,发电厂deja vu对吧?

          然后传说中的PPP没有任何一家企业提出兴趣。后来我明白了,究其根本,延sheppard的地铁线其实在很多年内都会亏本。赚不了钱的事那个商家会傻到自己撞墙?即使你福特狗肉朋友满天下也忽悠不动。如今sheppard 五千余ppd(现在每程ttc亏4元的说), 按数据番三倍都未必能合会成本。

          他和省政府说,把lrt全砍了,钱花在把eglinton埋地下,sheppard他自己有招。你看看eglinton golden mile那段就一片大plaza,有人住那么???这不是gravy是啥?更别说从leslie到vic park,除了don mill那是想在路面铺多少道都几乎可以的地方。那一样傻B的自由党大花洒居然同意了,居然一块忽略交通专家在eglinton铺高架的建议。真是一块二了。

          然后呢他花了十多万请了个consultant研究如何在sheppard融资,然后人家赚够养老金后告诉他没高招,要加税,高速收费等等后就不了了之。最让人气愤的是,他还以为自己很牛B。有议员提议既然sheppard LRT的钱只够建到vic park就先建那吧,他还不同意。想想,过了404那地铁还能回头吗?!

          最糟糕的是他不懂规划不懂城市,所以根本想不出好主意。其实多伦多不缺轨道,只是不会好好利用。像go track,如果福特聪明,应该push省政府同意用go track给ttc用(如德国柏林S-Bahn系统),当然还有什么电气化的问题,但福特这脑袋我是不指望他能明白了。

          另外sheppard沿线地铁最主要的问题是density, 人流不够所以导致一直亏本.他以为光靠建condo就能解决问题. 其实你看看那些condo很多人还是开车上班, 就明白更大的问题是多伦多郊区的就业density问题. 因为商业税的因素,公司如果不愿开在downtown就宁可开在905区. 可我们爱减税的市长这时去哪儿呢? 除了他每天喊的那几句口号,他还懂什么??

          他不懂妥协也不懂为自己争取机会。downtowner不是要喊建DRL么(king/queen街地铁过pape站到science center)。如果他还有一点智慧的话,他早该跳起来和左派联合起来,把sheppard延don mill通到DRL是那么简单那么合乎情理合乎经济利益的事情。就那么简单那么合乎情理合乎经济利益的事,他偏一点都想不到,除了他那真正的gravy train。

          到最后,大花洒自由党省府来忽悠延dan forth,他跑过去说他建了地铁。你倒回顾下上届大选谁说延dan forth但keep transit city了?正正是他的对手Smithman。而且这次整个推动过程是谁干的? 他这次大选的竞争对手(Stinz), 人家的one city可是一早包括了这条make sense的延伸.

          As ford had said himself, Enough is enough.

          Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
          • 转了多次,也不知道那个枪手写的,要不要转个庄得利的
            • 我写的,欢迎指教
            • JT有他的毛病,包括善变,冲动提议,政策考虑完善性差,都是他的大弱点。但是和福特那种撒谎成性的,不是同一等级。
              • 网上搜一下,不少地方呢,行呀!每个人看重点不同,很多人看中ford不拘小节,但能坚持自己。庄得利善变,墙头草,容易抛弃诺言,那比撒谎严重的多了。
                • JT自然不是很让人满意。但其他人也太差了,也就他能和人讨论,合作,不走极端,给点压力还有可能做到点事情。福特,他就一spoiled官二代。
                  • 51加拿大老张说:"看庄德利, 看到的是韦恩派来的艾利森. 难怪邹至蕙不服庄德利, 邹至少还是自己做主竞选, 庄德利整个一个傀儡'
                    [邹至蕙轰庄德利公车计划加物业税逾4%]

              • 庄得利还是福特拿假账来骗人???? [ Tory’s SmartTrack doesn’t live up to its name ]
                - - " There is no point addressing all the other problems Tory’s hastily conceived scheme glosses over. To call SmartTrack a back-of-the-napkin improvisation is to insult the good name of cheap pulp. The finances say it all. And the real issue is how much Torontonians are willing to pay — both in uncontrolled debt service costs and in other important projects derailed by SmartTrack debt — to satisfy the short-term ambition of one more “say anything” politician. "


                • 没看懂。JT至少说了要花多少钱,怎么融资,当然“the real issue is how much Torontonians are willing to pay”. 福特呢,搞笑的是他给出的延sheppard的预算比10年前建sheppard实际花的还小。拜托,横跨DVP那可是最花钱的部分。
                  专业点好不。
                  • [ John Tory’s SmartTrack: Why his big bet on transit is a real risk ] - - -"This leading candidate for mayor is just feeding more false hopes"
                  • 51网加拿大老张说:"邹至蕙轰庄得利的税党行为, 是有根据的, 那个站在庄得利后面牵线的顾问, 就是韦恩团队的. 再怎么包装, 税党还是要干税党的事" [邹至蕙轰庄德利公车计划加物业税逾4%]
              • 51网加拿大老张说:"自由党重量级人物为庄得利站台, 甚至直接出手为庄得利竞选. 考虑到庄得利10几年来拼命努力竞选, 却连最初级的公职都选不上, 能力之弱可见一斑. 而负责出政策做指导的竞选顾问艾利森是省府的高层人物, 谁是傀儡谁是主子, 还用说吗?"
      • X1000
      • 大众自己选的市议员投票反对自己,还选那些人吗?这就是没还修的一个主要问题 [ Time to clean house - let's bring 43 fresh faces to City Hall on October 27, 2014 in the Toronto Municipal Elections]
        • 可惜多伦多市政府不是胖胖家后院儿。
        • Time to clean house 清理门户的时候到了!
        • ^!
          • 得民心得天下
    • 福特的预算都是假冒伪劣的了,还有什么好说的
      • x1000
      • 不占路面空间的地铁是唯一正确之路.都知道修地铁不是朝夕的事情,先迈出第一步就是对的. 他相信联邦和省府愿意 拨多些款,例如他曾为地铁绿线 Bloor-Danforth 延长到Scarborough中心的计划从联邦那里争取到了6.6亿元的拨款,安省拨款14亿元, 这是个好的开端.
        地铁计划,是造福子孙后代的事情.要地铁不要堵占路面的轻轨当然支持福特

        说漂亮话, 标榜自己, 找毛病, 贬低对方是政客们的一贯伎俩。我们老百姓要维护我们的利益, 尊重事实. 为什么要听信政客的宣传, 不支持像福特这样一位实话实说, 诚心诚意为老百姓办事的人呢?
        选谁当市长?当然选福特!
        • 延dan forth到sheppeard是省府的提议,福特一直要延sheppard。当然自由党也是为了选票,但至少从客流量数据还有依可循。就这一条,联邦+省府的钱都不够,大家又不想加税,就别说其他地方再挖洞了。
          轻轨还是地铁还是要看density,大家不愿意densify不愿意放弃大房子不愿意放弃开车就麻烦(运营亏损太多),而这基本上这就是国人的北美梦。Ctrain在calgary,RER在巴黎,S-Bahn在柏林,包括LA,Boston等新起的交通干线都是利用地面轨,更别说中北欧了。欧美当今的人力物力政策的成本使得建地铁太昂贵了。当然能做到grade separate更好,所以JT的方案有他的价值。

          中国式的建地铁速度自然好,但那是,一基于中国式不顾一切的GDP至上发展模式,不用理会各级政府负债,二中国大城市人就真有那么多,这些在加拿大都是不可能的现实。

          多伦多地铁除了长度,问题多了去了。信号自动化,union需要扩容,blooor需要扩容, 需要自动门(每年都有十多人自杀),需要presto电子化(以干掉那些在门口睡觉的老头),需要解决终点调度问题(在kennedy站尤其严重)。前两项TTC在做,其他动作很慢,钱啊,politics啊,都是需要负责任的政客下功夫。喊口号容易,真正面对问题才难。包括有选票的选民。
          • "延dan forth到sheppeard是省府的提议"?这是大家和福特强烈反对轻轨的成果,自由党为了选票才放弃轻轨 ,怎么说成是省府的提议? 当年大家选福特选对了. JT的地上地铁和水上的士,省省. 要不要来个天上的空中巴士
            没钱建地铁就去建轻轨,到时候估计修拆轻轨的钱都没有钱,建不建地铁,钱都在那里,都会被花掉。 谁见过TTC减票价了?税收也不会因为不修地铁减少.为多伦多的未来,
            一堆政客就想短期利益, 推出.地铁所谓的“毛病” .轻轨"省钱".那些60多年前反对地铁的人, 如果成功的话, 多伦多DT至今可能还是BUS游行呢. 短视.
            • 嘿,真有福粉风范,信口开河贪天功就是醉了?来来来,让哥给你还原下历史。
              在2010版的福特竞选蓝图,从kennedy到STC是一条延现存RT路线取代RT的轻铁,而建议建地铁的呢,则是他的对手Smitherman,他的计划是建一条延eglinton->mccowen到STC的地铁。福特上台后一直致力于弄sheppard沿线,没有任何成果。而RT则是必须更新的,bombardier当场的设计使用寿命2015就完结了。但是当时市议会对改建有很多争议,因为直接原路改成LRT一样要花很多钱,其一是LRT是low floor, RT high floor,还有车轨道的间距不同,使得所有的轨道要扩冲重新铺过,还有RT沿线站台不够高来摆LRT的辫子,所以还是要花钱来重建月台。同时,在发电厂丑闻危机下,自由党又面临scarborough议席重选,为了选票,自由党出乎意料之外抛出延dan forth到STC的消息。可是市议会里以Stinz和黄敏男为头的(注意没有福特)觉得以交通网络的角度看,这种改建没有达到目的。其一如果sheppard LRT能成行,而与dan forth地铁延长线不相交,那真是太糟糕了,其二没有解决穿越401的bottle neck问题(如同finch到steeles那段类同),于是反提议延至sheppard&mccowen。自由党其实狡猾狡猾的,他们想捞选票又不想付出太多,就给了个预算数字只够建到STC。结局你也知道,自由党如愿以偿。
            • 建不建地铁,钱都会被花掉。建地铁,需要花更多的钱。简单啊这道理。难道能 “No From My Pocket“?
              地铁是为了速度,可多伦多如今的地铁状态太差了,看我上面那贴所列的,根本快不起来。这些都是需要解决的问题。Go train现在可是比地铁快的多,要扩展从环评到实施都比地铁简单有效的多。就不说两者要花的钱有多大差距了。
              • 大家不是傻子,不要再忽悠了,看专家意见 [ 指多市基建残旧彭比纳促建地铁] - - "彭比纳学会的安省总监Cherise Burda认为,多市有需要兴建地铁系统,令下一代毋须受到交通挤塞之苦" [2014-09-05]
          • 福特让选民们学的聪明些,不再选那些狡猾、自私、一心只有自己利益,道貌岸然的政客. 不论是保守党,自由党, NDP。看看 Bramton 市长, 知足吧!
            • 你知道福特的Deco label是市府相关工程的唯一投标者么?狡猾?自私?道貌岸然?不是要把福特当处女来拜吧?
              • 如你所说那还不上了庭,还用你庄粉来说. 省省吧!
                • 难道福粉和福特一样,真不能面对真实么?来,看看你偶像圈钱功力吧
                  本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛In 2010, the City of Toronto paid the Ford family’s company more than $56,000 to print stickers, tags and decals for various departments.
                  The city was doing business with Deco Labels and Tags before Rob Ford was elected to council 10 years ago, but now that he is mayor and his brother Doug is a councillor, the relationship has raised conflict of interest concerns among Ford’s opponents.
                  What safeguards are in place, they ask, to prevent Toronto’s chief executive officer from receiving preferential treatment for city contracts?
                  It turns out, there are very few.
                  City procurement policy requires staff seek at least three bids on any contract. From there, the lowest bid that meets the demands is chosen. Spokesperson Jackie DeSouza said the Fords’ company is treated the same as every other business.
                  “The people in purchasing who deal with these firms are not dealing with Councillor Ford or the mayor. They’re dealing with a salesperson at Deco labels. They feel absolutely no pressure,” she said.
                  Since February 2000, the earliest transaction on record, the city has paid Deco Labels more than $130,000 on 98 contracts.
                  It does not appear Ford has ever declared a conflict of interest.
                  George Rust-D’Eye, a leading municipal lawyer in Canada, said Ford probably hasn’t broken any rules.
                  “It’s a matter of argument. Someone could bring forward an application (of misconduct) … but let’s face it, a budget affects everything. The fact that someone may have some interest, no matter how small or indirect, I think that would probably be considered insignificant,” he said. The Fords may be instrumental in drafting overall department budgets, but that is significantly removed from sticker purchases made by junior staff in those divisions, said Rust-D’Eye.
                  Councillor Adam Vaughan, one of the mayor’s staunchest critics, thinks Ford still should have come forward with a conflict.
                  “You’re not supposed to vote on issues where you’re going to directly financially benefit,” he said. “If the Ford family business is doing business with city hall, when those contracts come in front of council — or those interests — they should be declared.”
                  Requests for interviews sent to the mayor’s office, Doug Ford and Deco Labels were refused.
                  When a council member is accused of misconduct, the city’s integrity commissioner, Janet Leiper, would be asked to investigate. But conflict of interest falls under provincial legislation, which is outside Leiper’s jurisdiction.
                  “If someone has a complaint…they’d have to get their own lawyer and take the matter up in court,” said Leiper, adding legal costs would fall on the individual who raised the complaint.
                  “I should add that former integrity commissioners have pointed this out, that it’s a cumbersome way to deal with conflicts and it should be reviewed.”
                  Deco Labels and Tags, founded in 1962 by Ford’s father, the late MPP Doug Ford, is one of North America’s premier label making companies, with estimated annual sales that top $100 million.
                  Councillor Doug Ford remains the company’s president. Exactly what role the mayor holds is unclear. For years Ford served as Deco’s chief financial officer. Today, his name does not appear on Deco’s federal business profile, although copies of Ford’s itinerary obtained by the Star through a freedom of information request show the mayor is still involved with the company.
                  On Jan. 20, Ford was scheduled to attend a “family business” meeting from 9 a.m. to 11:30 a.m. The following Monday, his itinerary said “Deco all day” from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m., though the day also lists budget committee and property standards meetings.
                  Deco also has a longstanding business relationship with the Toronto Transit Commission.
                  The TTC, which has done $18,000 worth of business with Deco in the last 10 years, also adheres to the city’s procurement policies, although sometimes multiple quotes aren’t possible.
                  “We always, always look for multiple bids or tenders or quotes when we can. There are some products, however, where only one vendor can provide that product,” said spokesperson Brad Ross.
                  That mainly concerns Wheel-Trans magnet decals. Deco is the only company that meets the durability requirements, among other things. “These products are specialized — they’re not just magnets,” Ross added.
                  Councillor Janet Davis is doubtful.
                  “Both Doug and Rob ford have been adamant that sole-sourced contracts simply shouldn’t exist,” she said. “It’s hard to believe that Deco labels is the only company that produces certain kinds of magnets.”
                  Considering the scope of Deco’s business, Vaughan concedes the amounts are small.
                  “But it’s the principle of the thing. We get upset about $1,000 worth of chocolates (purchased for Toronto Community Housing Corp. staff) and people can be fired. dismissed and destroyed over that,” he said. “It appears that there’s some magnetic gravy here and I guess this one will stick to them.”
                  With files from Daniel Dale更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                  • 上法庭这不是反福特的神招么?如果认为需要,支持你去告他, 就不用浪费时间磨了. 圈钱?你也太庄招 了吧, 福特他哥4年不要的人工就40多万
                    • 福粉辛苦了,午饭时间了,胖哥要是不包午饭我请咖灰。
                    • 呵呵,佩服您的福爷,deco label年收都几百万的,连ttc都承认他们的label只有deco才有资格制作。那说明福爷真是晓常人之不晓。也许他真是某类艺术家,需要大麻激发创造灵感。
                      对,con artist
              • 你不是要把庄多利当圣女来拜吧?看51的网民都拜拜他:" 脚踏两只船的常败将军兼职市长候选人庄德利 - - - 到目前为止 并没有打算放弃罗渣士电讯公司董事局成员的职务.
                脚踏两只船的兼职市长候选人庄德利

                - - - 脚踏两只船的庄德利, 成了星报吹捧的对象, 真是讽刺知道


                http://bbs.51.ca/viewthread.php?tid=539363&highlight=心仪的
                • 一,我不是任何人的粉。金庸名句,一朝入了门道,武功便落了下乘。上面也说了,JT不让人满意,只是交通计划比其他人靠谱得多。二,就事论事,JT只是为rogers打工,而福特是deco的老板。
                  在周四global and mail辩论上,邹问tory和福特关于利益问题。是否会把公司放入 Blind trust? tory说当选会辞去rogers职位。但他不own Rogers. 而福特则说自己是deco的silent partner. 他说完就哄堂大笑了。
                  • 不是任何人的粉? 中立 ? " 只是交通计划比其他人靠谱得多" "但其他人也太差了,也就他能和人讨论,合作,不走极端,给点压力还有可能做到点事情。福特,他就一spoiled官二代" 嘿 "庄"出面了,中立 吗? 傻子都不信 不own Rogers就没有利益问题?
                    • 我们的差别是,JT干不好,四年后就赶他下台。这么大年纪啦,心中总装个红太阳,累不累啊。。。
                      • 为主子拉票来了, 还装"不是任何人的粉"自欺欺人, 这么大年纪啦,心中总装个JT, 累不累啊. 你还真以为大家是傻子, "四年后就赶他下台" , 10n亿不见了,不见你拉由党下台,不见你抓住不放,而对福特就抓住不放. 忽悠谁?省省吧!
                        • 我都忙得怕有好多个星期没功夫理这些烂番茄,就看见你们几个福粉每天上窜下跳的,不知谁每天在鼓吹。太搞笑了。
                          不是JT有多好,而是福特太糟糕了。多伦多市选这个烂番茄就这样了。
                      • "John Tory was hired by Rogers Communications Inc. as a lobbyist last July, which means they have been paying him money to influence government on their behalf "
                        - - -also now known as J-Lobby, until he gives you straight answers, or until he reveals himself as a lying sleaze by not giving you straight answers:"- "How much have you been paid in the last 14 months as a
                        registered lobbyist for Rogers?


                        - "What lobbying actions have you taken on behalf of Rogers?"
                        - "Is your run for Mayor of Toronto part of your lobbying effort, to become a political insider with power so you can achieve gains for Rogers?"
                        Thank you, the management

                  • 我说福特和专家地铁系统比其他人的靠谱就是福粉, 你说JT的“高级街车”计划比其他人靠谱得多,就不是任何人的粉,logic不? 还金庸名句的自圆其说
                    • Transit 专家?呵呵,不是被福特鄙视到死的elitist么。既然您这么好学,介绍你看看城市规划的入门作“美国大城市的生与死”,还有真正的专家Steven Munro。 http://stevemunro.ca 多读书,别把无知当有趣
              • 别忘了好好确认你的圣像庄多利是啥家才去拜啊,不然会被人当笑话的. [ John Tory and the Liberals ]
        • 他相信、他相信,都是一厢情愿。几年前,我还相信胖福能搞到钱呢!
          • ,过去4年中福特没能完成修地铁的竞选承诺不是他的错,而是有太多的掣肘。谁都知道的, 错的是我们自己, 选那些市议员投票反对自己 [ Time to clean house - let's bring 43 fresh faces to City Hall on October 27,2014 ]
            • 忽悠,接着忽悠,你还真以为大家是傻子,会相信胖福这个二愣子?!
              • 看是谁忽悠,接着忽悠,谁还真以为大家是傻子?谁喊口号?没有什么好说的了就什么言辞都用上. 你这 让庄得利成庄不利了
        • 好吧,还是先交了你那几百块交通违规罚款再说,别让胖哥替你为难啦。
          • 那几百块交通违规罚款? 泼"庄"水这招都出了. 你真是网上无双. 你这 让庄得利成庄不利滴!
            • 谢谢,是的,先交罚款,然后再继续打压华人邹智慧。
              • 是what?什么罚款? 啥时打压华人邹智慧?? 假话及撒泼只会贬低了你自己, 分化不了大家, 只会让大家认清你的面目
                • 看把你急的,别上火啊,气着了可划不来。有则改之无则加勉吗。
                  • 急的,上火,气着了划不来的是你, 如此自欺欺人 , 在大家眼里又低了一层.谎言重复1000遍依旧变不成真理, 颠倒黑白, 条理亏词穷,无理可讲时就会使出造谣,打哈哈吗的招数. 几次了? 不道歉 请勿回帖
                    • 哎呀呀,赞夜不能寐,为了胖哥你辛苦了。千万可别累坏了啊,要不怎么给胖哥摇旗呐喊呀,继续努力!
    • 多伦多刚出台的未来地铁图计划,我也笑了。。。
      • 笑神马?!我简直要哭!
        • why?Don't cry!