本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛From: Jerry Leslie (leslie@clio.rice.edu)
Subject: Re: Stop H1B Flooding America! Read How...
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
View: Complete Thread (23 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2001-12-08 18:20:18 PST
Gerald Kelly (gkelly@mminternet.com) wrote:
: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) wrote:
: >I personally know two people who use software developers in India, and
: >are very satisfied with their work, as well as their rates.
:
: It doesn't have to be that way.
Agreed. I get the impression that they're working with small groups,
and know the people.
: My company had two very bad experiences with 2 different large
: Indian software "consultancies" . The quality of their work was
: abysmal, almost as bad as their QA practices. I had to teach an
: alleged "Unix expert" how to create a tar file. Both companies did
: not have separate QA departments; developers allegedly did QA as well.
Who selected these companies ? Even an old VMS & FORTRAN dinosaur like
me knows that QA must be a separate department.
: Neither company ever met a deadline. We ended up throwing away all
: of the code these companies had written and did it ourselves.
That sounds like AIG Insurance's experience. AIG fired their programmers
and replaced them with H-1Bs from India, forcing their programmers to
train their Indian replacements first.
Then later AIG had to bring back some of the fired programmers to fix
the mess. Part of the story is at:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2166105,00.html
H1-B safety net fails IT workers
By Stephanie Neil
eWEEK
November 18, 1998 6:10 AM PT
:
: "Outsourcing to India" is no magic bullet, as much as Western
: management types would like it to be.
Of course not. From my 25 years in a major oil company, I learned
that the managers operate on something akin to papal infallibility;
i.e. "they" don't make mistakes.
That's why their "quality" programs don't mention Deming.
So it's unlikely that US managers are going to admit their mistake
so that others can learn the lesson.
Their goal is to get the job done for the least amount of work, so
they'll use offshore outsourcing, H-1Bs, and offshore relocation,
if the payback is there.
: India has crappy programmers too, and Indian management types will
: be happy to sell Western management types their services.
:
Perhaps that's why the Indian CEO of Relativity chose to use Russian :-)
offshore programmers, instead of ones from India :-)
http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,39018,00.html
Company's Russian Brainpower Helps Software Workers Save
"...But Relativity CEO Vivek Wadhwa boasts his company is profitable
despite the tech industry doldrums thanks to the savings that
come from outsourcing much of their programming work to a Russian
partner, LANIT-TERCOM.
There are good and bad programmers everywhere. The US has some too,
as well as dubious Program Managers, like this one who used to be
at Microsoft:
http://www.softwaremarketsolution.com/
"An Interview with Joel Spolsky of JoelonSoftware
Part I of II
Overview
We recently sat down with someone we regard as one of the industry's
most fascinating personalities, Joel Spolsky, president and one of the
founders of Fog Creek Software (www.fogcreek.com), located in New York
City. Joel worked at Microsoft from 1991 to 1994 and has over ten
years of experience managing the software development process. As a
Program Manager on the Microsoft Excel team, Joel designed Excel Basic
and drove Microsoft's Visual Basic for Applications strategy. (Joel
takes particular pride in the fact that on the day Bill Gates asked if
date math functions were compatible across the company's different
procedure and function libraries, he, Joel Spolsky, was able to
reassure the great man himself that with the exception of January and
February 1900, all Microsoft application libraries counted dates the
same way.)
[snip]
SMS: Joel, what, in your opinion, is the single greatest development
sin a software company can commit?
Joel: Deciding to completely rewrite your product from scratch, on the
theory that all your code is messy and bug prone and is bloated and
needs to be completely rethought and rebuild from ground zero."
[snip]
SMS: Yes, but isn't such code tight and small? Don't products built
this way avoid the dreaded "bloatware" label?
Joel: Don't get me started! If you're a software company, there are
lots of great business reasons to love bloatware. For one, if
programmers don't have to worry about how large their code is, they
can ship it sooner. And that means you get more features, and features
make users' lives better (if they use them) and don't usually hurt (if
they don't). As a user, if your software vendor stops, before
shipping, and spends two months squeezing the code down to make it 50%
smaller, the net benefit to you is going to be imperceptible, but you
went for two months without new features that you needed, and THAT
hurt..."
Some US programmers feel that they have NOTHING to worry about from:
o offshore outsourcing
o H-1B visa program
o globalization policies of the government
I've even encountered some programmers who don't think that there's
any lack of jobs, a view President Bush apparently shares.
Note "computer programmer" and "jobs that actually exist"...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011204-17.html
President Meets with Displaced Workers in Florida Town Hall Meeting
"Remarks by the President in Town Hall Meeting
Orange County Convention Center
Orlando, Florida
Meeting with about 4,000 displaced workers, President George W. Bush
holds a town hall meeting at the Orange County Convention Center in
Orlando, Fla., Tuesday, Dec. 4, 2001. White House photo by Eric
Draper.
3:20 P.M. EST
[snip]
Q Thank you, Mr. President. Since the September 11th tragedy,
many Americans with college degrees, including myself, have been laid
off. What are some of the things you're doing to help people like me,
who have been out of work for the past few months?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, first of all, there's a lot of money spent from
the federal level to help -- to help with reeducation. And one of the
programs that I just mentioned is the use of federal monies to empower
state governments to provide opportunities for reeducation.
I just went by a center today. I sat next to a TWA pilot, highly
skilled, college-educated man who got laid off as a pilot. His dream
is to go back to a local community college, become reeducated to
become a computer programmer. In other words, the idea is to mate
those with skills with jobs that actually exist.
The problem with the kind of federal approach and only federal
approach is, is that we may encourage you to become trained in a job
that doesn't exist. And so the real thing is, is there money
available for job training. Is there money available from the federal
government to say to Governor Bush of Florida, here is some dough; set
up a system that will actually match people with skills and jobs that
exist.
There are jobs in Florida. And the fundamental question is, how do we
encourage those with skills, to funnel those with skills into those
jobs...."
Back to being on-topic for this thread, H.R. 3005 passed the House of
Representatives by one vote.
--Jerry Leslie (my opinions are strictly my own)更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
Subject: Re: Stop H1B Flooding America! Read How...
Newsgroups: comp.software-eng
View: Complete Thread (23 articles) | Original Format
Date: 2001-12-08 18:20:18 PST
Gerald Kelly (gkelly@mminternet.com) wrote:
: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) wrote:
: >I personally know two people who use software developers in India, and
: >are very satisfied with their work, as well as their rates.
:
: It doesn't have to be that way.
Agreed. I get the impression that they're working with small groups,
and know the people.
: My company had two very bad experiences with 2 different large
: Indian software "consultancies" . The quality of their work was
: abysmal, almost as bad as their QA practices. I had to teach an
: alleged "Unix expert" how to create a tar file. Both companies did
: not have separate QA departments; developers allegedly did QA as well.
Who selected these companies ? Even an old VMS & FORTRAN dinosaur like
me knows that QA must be a separate department.
: Neither company ever met a deadline. We ended up throwing away all
: of the code these companies had written and did it ourselves.
That sounds like AIG Insurance's experience. AIG fired their programmers
and replaced them with H-1Bs from India, forcing their programmers to
train their Indian replacements first.
Then later AIG had to bring back some of the fired programmers to fix
the mess. Part of the story is at:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2166105,00.html
H1-B safety net fails IT workers
By Stephanie Neil
eWEEK
November 18, 1998 6:10 AM PT
:
: "Outsourcing to India" is no magic bullet, as much as Western
: management types would like it to be.
Of course not. From my 25 years in a major oil company, I learned
that the managers operate on something akin to papal infallibility;
i.e. "they" don't make mistakes.
That's why their "quality" programs don't mention Deming.
So it's unlikely that US managers are going to admit their mistake
so that others can learn the lesson.
Their goal is to get the job done for the least amount of work, so
they'll use offshore outsourcing, H-1Bs, and offshore relocation,
if the payback is there.
: India has crappy programmers too, and Indian management types will
: be happy to sell Western management types their services.
:
Perhaps that's why the Indian CEO of Relativity chose to use Russian :-)
offshore programmers, instead of ones from India :-)
http://foxnews.com/story/0,2933,39018,00.html
Company's Russian Brainpower Helps Software Workers Save
"...But Relativity CEO Vivek Wadhwa boasts his company is profitable
despite the tech industry doldrums thanks to the savings that
come from outsourcing much of their programming work to a Russian
partner, LANIT-TERCOM.
There are good and bad programmers everywhere. The US has some too,
as well as dubious Program Managers, like this one who used to be
at Microsoft:
http://www.softwaremarketsolution.com/
"An Interview with Joel Spolsky of JoelonSoftware
Part I of II
Overview
We recently sat down with someone we regard as one of the industry's
most fascinating personalities, Joel Spolsky, president and one of the
founders of Fog Creek Software (www.fogcreek.com), located in New York
City. Joel worked at Microsoft from 1991 to 1994 and has over ten
years of experience managing the software development process. As a
Program Manager on the Microsoft Excel team, Joel designed Excel Basic
and drove Microsoft's Visual Basic for Applications strategy. (Joel
takes particular pride in the fact that on the day Bill Gates asked if
date math functions were compatible across the company's different
procedure and function libraries, he, Joel Spolsky, was able to
reassure the great man himself that with the exception of January and
February 1900, all Microsoft application libraries counted dates the
same way.)
[snip]
SMS: Joel, what, in your opinion, is the single greatest development
sin a software company can commit?
Joel: Deciding to completely rewrite your product from scratch, on the
theory that all your code is messy and bug prone and is bloated and
needs to be completely rethought and rebuild from ground zero."
[snip]
SMS: Yes, but isn't such code tight and small? Don't products built
this way avoid the dreaded "bloatware" label?
Joel: Don't get me started! If you're a software company, there are
lots of great business reasons to love bloatware. For one, if
programmers don't have to worry about how large their code is, they
can ship it sooner. And that means you get more features, and features
make users' lives better (if they use them) and don't usually hurt (if
they don't). As a user, if your software vendor stops, before
shipping, and spends two months squeezing the code down to make it 50%
smaller, the net benefit to you is going to be imperceptible, but you
went for two months without new features that you needed, and THAT
hurt..."
Some US programmers feel that they have NOTHING to worry about from:
o offshore outsourcing
o H-1B visa program
o globalization policies of the government
I've even encountered some programmers who don't think that there's
any lack of jobs, a view President Bush apparently shares.
Note "computer programmer" and "jobs that actually exist"...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011204-17.html
President Meets with Displaced Workers in Florida Town Hall Meeting
"Remarks by the President in Town Hall Meeting
Orange County Convention Center
Orlando, Florida
Meeting with about 4,000 displaced workers, President George W. Bush
holds a town hall meeting at the Orange County Convention Center in
Orlando, Fla., Tuesday, Dec. 4, 2001. White House photo by Eric
Draper.
3:20 P.M. EST
[snip]
Q Thank you, Mr. President. Since the September 11th tragedy,
many Americans with college degrees, including myself, have been laid
off. What are some of the things you're doing to help people like me,
who have been out of work for the past few months?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, first of all, there's a lot of money spent from
the federal level to help -- to help with reeducation. And one of the
programs that I just mentioned is the use of federal monies to empower
state governments to provide opportunities for reeducation.
I just went by a center today. I sat next to a TWA pilot, highly
skilled, college-educated man who got laid off as a pilot. His dream
is to go back to a local community college, become reeducated to
become a computer programmer. In other words, the idea is to mate
those with skills with jobs that actually exist.
The problem with the kind of federal approach and only federal
approach is, is that we may encourage you to become trained in a job
that doesn't exist. And so the real thing is, is there money
available for job training. Is there money available from the federal
government to say to Governor Bush of Florida, here is some dough; set
up a system that will actually match people with skills and jobs that
exist.
There are jobs in Florida. And the fundamental question is, how do we
encourage those with skills, to funnel those with skills into those
jobs...."
Back to being on-topic for this thread, H.R. 3005 passed the House of
Representatives by one vote.
--Jerry Leslie (my opinions are strictly my own)更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net