Update: our guys so far all have more than 5 years IT experiences. Some have more than 10 years overseas working history. Skills include various aspects: C++, VB, DB, Web, Networking, etc. Projects will include… -aiattendant(aiattendant) @费城华人论坛:费城枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum of Philadelphia

工作学习 / IT杂谈 / Is it possible to start up prospective projects by Chinese people? -aiattendant(aiattendant); 2001-9-21 {3791} (#207292@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛99% Chinese coming from the mainland are urging to seek a job. OK, we need to survive, I agree. But comparing to 65% population is self-employed. There are seldom discussions about bringing up some professional business and take care our own baby.

I already heard people murmuring about everything but possible. Some words in the following may sound harsh to someone. However, I would rather to take the risk of being cursed to stir up some could-be unrest hearts.

First of all, Chinese people are not nothing when talking about cooperation. Hold on, don’t tell me again, I’ve heard enough that “A single Chinese guy is a dragon, Chinese in flocks are worms.” Or “Be careful when Chinese are alone. No need to pay attention when they group up, they will be too busy in fighting between each other to compete outside world”. Feel proud? Really shame. We are Chinese. We don’t need others to tell us who we are. We are here to show the world that the legend is not true.

Don’t be scared. Dispute is not Chinese people’s proprietary right. It belongs to all races of people. It’s human nature. Agree? Basically it is unavoidable natural stuff, so the point is: do not try to elude from it, try to ‘love’ it with proper attitude. People are arguing because they are deeply involved, although overwhelmed with a little bit emotion. Don’t take it personally, keep open, straight, constructive, and seasoned with a little bit humor. We will keep on going, going and going…Keep it in a business way. Let’s say “forget about it” once things gets settled, no matter how fierce the argument has been.

Still others would say that Chinese can adhere together in the startup (poor) period, but will fail to hang on once got money. Sounds like small hoodlums. Are we? Again, I have to say that greedy is also human nature. I have witnessed breakup between white guys even before becoming prosperous. The way to deal with it: put everything on the table, plus a little bit more dedicated.

Then, we Chinese people, have virtues over others. Because our profound culture, we will not go to extremes on either end. Because we lived a plain life, we will not burn away money like spoiled kids. Because we are humble, we will not get beaten down crushed before we get strong. We can tolerate more bearing, work harder, and doubtless, we are more comprehensive minded and longsighted.

But how come?

We have to admit that Chinese people are more conservative, negative, and pessimistic. To be aggressive does not necessarily mean to attack. To be optimistic does not mean careless. To praise does not mean immature. These aspects are probably what drag us backwards. Either in your work or doing your own stuff, judge things in a more positive way.

Finally, Let’s get down to some details. What do you consider about the future of Hi-Tech? The end of world already? May be true from the job market point of view. So many closing down and lay off. Not many companies have the funds to open new projects. New immigrants stay at home for months or even over a year. What are you doing now and what will you do? When will be the recover? I would say that hi-tech already rooted into everyday life and will penetrate into every corner of all kinds of fields you can imagine, or where you can not. What is broken of so called bubble since last year is the “money burner” business modal converse to the traditional way of business. Once the growth point or modal established, the IT industry will boom again. The exponential explosive developing period will span decades after this re-formatting time.

Let’s prepare for that. Please pass on to http://www.rolia.com/forum/forum_showPost.php?_bno=500&_cno=0&tno=29753&pno=206107&searchfor=

Thanks for your attention.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
http://www.rolia.com/forum/forum_showPost.php?_bno=500&_cno=0&tno=29753&pno=206107&searchfor=

how to and from where to start our trip?give us a suggestion which can direct us to our target. -aix_ca(天生好学); 2001-9-21 (#207355@0)
Let's start by building up reputation -aiattendant(aiattendant); 2001-9-22 {4162} (#207637@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛People will easily feel cheated or fooled if they can not get direct benefit from what they contribute. We have to talk about what will be the advantages by doing real work as a start.

Most companies will care more about what you have accomplished, besides what you have learned. Many will even ask whether the project is internal or commercial product. To be honest though cruel, what you've learned will be only one line in your resume, no matter how many years you spent for it, either a degree or certificates. Some training companies provided course projects and rendered in the resume as real projects. And you know what it has turned out to be. Back in 1998, when I carried a laptop and demonstrated the software I produced for a startup company to the interviewers, they told me frankly that they were greatly impressed. (However, the startup company died because of financial problems left me zero cents except ideas and spirits.) By doing real works, you have real things to show to your future bosses. Also you will have reference people in North America.

Traditionally there are two ways of business, making product or providing consultance. Consulting (take contracts from other companies) is less risky and more instant money. But right now there are really not too many projects around in the recession. Making our own products is more controllable and we can accumulate intellectual property. The company will have more credit to make deals with others when the economy recovers. Get a look at ZDNET or CDNET download sections; we are not alone in doing that. The success rate is too low? It is actually higher than the percentage of people could get into a university in China.

What kind of products we will make actually depends on what kinds of people will response. Creative people are rare and precious, and most welcomed. Others want to be assigned tasks. On the technical part, for C++, a mature idea is automation software. Take a look at "Automate" software. We have a similar prototype and could be refined ona different focus. General idea is, if a category of product has no freeware on the market, then we have margin to compete. For those who will be interested in C# and XML, there is an accounting software under negotiation. It will be part of sales management system in China. Gratefully, the next ten years will be Chinese era. Anyone who has connection with Chinese enterprises will be highly welcomed to participate.

China has great potential on the IT development. There are a bunch of software (systems) available but someone (executive guys) told me that the usability and stability are poor. If the system is not proper designed, redundant work will cost high to the company. It is common phenomena in every aspects of Chinese industry. We can produce everything, but nothing perfect. And needless to say, Chinese companies lack management experiences and lag behind on the methodology and guidelines aspects. We can make up what they want corperating together. As of the personnel’s benefits, those who work with us will get compensated on what has been missed during your experience in China.

There are some smaller programs we want to implement as commercial software. We will publish them onto Internet to be accessible worldwide. We will need some persons to describe the software on our web site and write manuals. If you are expertised on hardware setup and configuration, we can help you on consulting services, marketing more on native people. New immigrants will feel pain if you charge anything from them, but the natives get used to pay for services if they are satisfied (usually, not all people are saints). That’s why Service industry is one of the supporting industry in North America. We will collect testimonies from users and list in the web site. Again, this is the way of life here. Credit system, do not take advantage of it by cheating, but really benefit from abide by it, in the name of both company and personnel. When it is the time, we will get sales company to sell for us or our own marketing people will do their home work.

Welcome to contact for further details.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

Automation software is interesting. Could you say more on it? How is the market? -blazer(blazer); 2001-9-24 (#209231@0)

Thanks for being interested. I am afraid of being scolded for luring if I paint a colorful picture. I would suggest… -aiattendant(aiattendant); 2001-9-24 {445} (#209312@0)
Make a search on Internet and you can find a bunch of software of the kind. And squeeze your head to think about how you can utilize it. I would like to provide a list for your convenience.
http://www.unisyn.com/automate/
http://www.wintask.com/
http://www.hiteksoftware.com/
http://www.acrasoft.com/

(None of the above are mine. So don’t suspect advertising.)
Feel free to call me and tell: oh, that’s shit… I bet you will be amazed.

Good idea.But at least 1 question must be considered first: most new immigrants come here with limitted money,... -aix_ca(天生好学); 2001-9-24 {991} (#209257@0)
they must pay apartment rental, telephone bill etc.They must buy basic living things especially food,living equitment. In a word, the max period they can bear before the get their job,get their income. If your plan exceed this period, no one can take part in your project. They must make money ASAP to feed themself ,their wife/husband, their child/children.So most new immigrants pay much more attension to when can they get a job and their income. They pay less attension to what to do,what can i study from the job.

So u should make a fast and clearly plan to those guys to let them take part in your bright futured project. For example, i get a big project need what kind people,i can give then what kind of chance,salary etc. for those guys who can work together to finish the project.

By the way, i have a commercial project which will make 20 million yuan RMB in china market within next 2 years, would u ike to work together with us without any gurrantee within those 2 years?

Not every person will take the same routine, for life or for career. People have to judge by their own situation. -aiattendant(aiattendant); 2001-9-24 {1133} (#209281@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Most people have to get money the next day of arriving Canada. Some need not. Many having been stay at home for months or over a year before we met each other.

From Chinese culture, study is usually ultimate choice when one sees no other immediate way to choose. And people get no blame if they learn from books. (I did not reject that.) However, we believe it will be more efficient to combine practice and theoretical knowledge together.

We can not and should not and will not whip people to work on anything. For people who may feel foolish to work on something uncertain, they can deliberately take their own safe routine. We will still give advice that better pick up some practical exercises and better it should be assessable to their future boss to review it. Do it yourself. Need not tell us. And you can see, we will not do anything if people choose not to take our advice.

For pals who need not to worry about surviving or would like to take risk for the long run, they will have full liberty to judge the value of ideas (it will be themselves, BTW) and decide which one to take on.

Thanks for your response.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
I would like. What is it? -active(wind); 2001-12-24 (#310139@0)

worth to read and think about it. -hailstorm(寒冰雨); 2001-9-26 (#210683@0)

Thanks. I really hope people could think about something more besides surviving. Either do something by their own, in their own group, or cooperate and become more powerful... -aiattendant(aiattendant); 2001-9-27 (#211805@0)

按照中国的哲学，人的一生有多个四季组成，春种夏发，秋收冬藏。穷则独善其身，富则周济天下。条件不好的时候，就戒急用忍，积累知识和经验，保养好身体。反正冬天到了，春天还远吗？ -pyramid(金字塔); 2001-9-27 (#211843@0)

According to Canadian experience, when the winter comes, there is still more than half of a year to wait for the spring:) I agree with you, We should prepare instead of hibernating... -aiattendant(aiattendant); 2001-9-28 {3219} (#212188@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛We are preparing for the spring.

Chinese humble and tolerance are virtues on one side, vices under another situation. In the 1930s, about a quarter million Chinese died in the railway construction (western region) and the law kicked away the remains afterwards. They died because they believe it’s the only way to survive. In the Second World War, several Japanese solders could drive groups of hundreds of Chinese into the river and drown them. No one strive because strive is not a standard way of survive.

Are we facing a historical event? Dow Index has just experienced the worst plunge in the 6 decades (since the one in 1930s). We don’t care the stock market because we are not interested in stock trading? Come on, man, don’t try to desperate people by showing your numbness.

20 years ago, there has been a widely discuss on waking up Chinese business concepts, saying like: 酒香不怕巷子深;君子不言商;万般皆下品,唯有读书高. Has been fulfilled in the newspaper. Nowadays, vast of independent class immigrants picked it up again and dives into schools waiting for 三顾茅庐. (Sorry for the harsh. And of course, now they learned to send out millions of resumes.) They will look down on people who are running a grocery store, a small restaurant, or a computer shop. Or they will say: can everyone open a store, then the street will full of restaurant, blah, blah, blah. You can find good examples on what Conservative means from they denying. (just as everyone is now blaming Japanese, but I bet many will blame Chinese if they strive.)

I do not mean to tell that everyone should be self-employed. It will largely depend on personality. Because of the uneven percentage of self-employed Chinese compared to other races, I believe that more Chinese will start to think about it. We acknowledge that there are higher risks by taking the venture. One of our guys quit Ph.D study and spent some years with a group of natives working on some ideas, and failed on the time to go to market. Even though, new registered companies never stop to appear. Just like people never stop to compete to enter a University even the enrollment rate is horribly low in China, because people hold different concepts. Look at the classmates around you and see how many Chinese and how many people of other races.

On the other hand, is a job a safe? Once you get a job, then you stay in the heaven? Does it depend on your performance not to be laid off? Once you learned something and no need to learn again for life? Do you expect that when you are in 40s, you can learn as fast as you can right now? Or you think you will not be in 40s?:) All in all, a safe way does not mean easier and safer at all.

Once you could survive, think about steps a little further. Our Chinese are careful people. Once we start up something, we have better chances to keep it growing up. Just like when our ancestor are driven into the water, all of them were thinking they could survive by keeping silence; when they were drown in the water, most were thinking, take it easy, everyone will die. But we hope some will try to break through if it happened today. It would not success if only one thought about. It needs collaborative.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
最烦"戒急用忍"四个字,每次找厕所时就会想到她 -benbendan(笨笨蛋); 2001-10-9 (#219997@0)

戒急用忍是没办法的事，拿你的例子来说，如果暂时找不到厕所，难道你会随地大小便吗？ -pyramid(金字塔); 2001-10-9 (#220069@0)

我们说的是两码事."找不着厕所,旮旯也行".哈,哈~~~~~~~~ -benbendan(笨笨蛋); 2001-10-10 (#220290@0)

我也是，凡有一点可能，就不戒急用忍。难受啊。：） -pyramid(金字塔); 2001-10-10 (#220848@0)

没办法. -benbendan(笨笨蛋); 2001-10-11 (#221730@0)

Update: our guys so far all have more than 5 years IT experiences. Some have more than 10 years overseas working history. Skills include various aspects: C++, VB, DB, Web, Networking, etc. Projects will include… -aiattendant(aiattendant); 2001-9-28 {938} (#212241@0)
one on utilizing automation technique, another will be kind of MIS system. The first one will use C++ and intensive advanced Windows features. The other one will be developed on MS new technologies.

We have relatively clear requirements and capable to do good enough high level design. We are looking for long-term cooperation no matter you are currently working (professional or temporary) or studying. We will record credits for people who have contributed and will share the benefit after we obtain. We can understand that you will doubt the possibility of success. As mentioned in the previous correspondence, everything contains risks. We will constantly look for people who would like to do something more besides surviving, and believe that profits should be proportional with risks taken.

Long term interests include parallel computing across platforms. Those who are insterested Linux programming could keep an eye on it.
http://www.rolia.com/forum/forum_showPost.php?_bno=500&_cno=0&tno=29753&pno=206107&searchfor=
推荐一篇文章,非常丰富,中肯的见解和劝戒: 微软中国研究院院长写给中国学生的信 -aiattendant(aiattendant); 2001-10-5 (#217583@0)

thanks a lot! -songl(风); 2001-10-10 (#220923@0)
好文章!!! -benbendan(笨笨蛋); 2001-10-11 (#221732@0)

An idea I have been harboring for a long time -jtang63(angrycoder); 2001-10-6 {1177} (#217815@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛From my experience in a growing small system integration company.

1. start from very small project, not quite high tech
2. Try to find hardware sales people, ask what they sell and do they need any help on programming the system he is selling.
3. I am programming automated data collection system using Visual Basic. You might laugh at the idea of programming using VB, but tell you the truth, right now almost 100% of our $210K/month business is done in VB. Because it's easy to use, and it's easy to find people and VB is a fantastic RAD tool and it gets the job done perfectly.
4.I have tried using VC++ to do the job, but the development process is too painfully slow and crash-prone, and while my customer is on the phone with me about certain crash or bugs, the only thing I can use is VB.

I have been to customer site and done quick fix. In C++? Don't even try that.

A lot of Americans are sales people. They don't like programming, but they love to sell high tech hardware, like barcode scanners, POS systems but those systems need to be programmed to the customers specification, very lucrative business.

OK, let the search begin.

Good luck.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

Thank you for your surggestion, Mr. Tang. We will do it when we got chance, may be you could introduce some to us:) We will appreciate it. We can go to states when needed. -aiattendant(aiattendant); 2001-10-6 (#218120@0)

ISV and other -jtang63(angrycoder); 2001-10-10 {317} (#220782@0)
Look at www.dsxtech.com, this is another model of business (ISV independent software vendor).

Aout the idea regarding finding a Sales person.
It's just an idea from my experience. I am still waiting for my GC, so I can't do anything right now. Maybe if I were laid off, I would go to Canada to do something.

Thanks for the info. I am a little busy and did not check here for days. I won't expect you to be laid off:) But we can keep contact in your part time. -aiattendant(aiattendant); 2001-10-12 {848} (#222802@0)
I interviewed hundreds and hired some in last years. But the company burned out of money and 90% people gone. Although I have been trying to startup something for long time, the reality happened on yourself will give you the deepest impression and turbulence. "Get a job and keep it" will not be as simple as someone hoped. There are too many things non-controllable working for others. In such economic situation, the recruiting agent told me that if there are 4 persons applying for one position before, now it is 100.

Your mentioned site is a good example. Since I worked with some native guys on Kiosks, I suggested to do something similar, back in 1998. However, it will be one style of business because of the advantage of software products, and we will keep trying on that.

Please email me with your phone number if you like. Thanks.

you make the point ! -rootbear(喝点啤酒晕晕头); 2001-12-17 (#301935@0)

没有市场，作什么都没用。 -scorpio(scorpio); 2001-10-6 (#217878@0)

At least we're able to be ready when the market turns warm. -cyt(cyt); 2001-10-7 (#218861@0)

Thanks for the positive responses and encourages. 我们每周末固定时间举办软件工程方面的讲座。 -aiattendant(aiattendant); 2001-10-15 {219} (#225729@0)
主要目的是提高小组成员对系统设计的重视。但也欢迎公众自由参加。主要内容是OOP+UML，每次一小时，免费。场地有限，请提前联系。

同时在这一阶段中也有其他小组与我们接触。每个人，每个团体都有所长，有所短，联合起来就可以互补。

how to contact with you? I am interested iin your group and ideas -japa18(japa); 2001-10-16 (#226105@0)

You can reply me by email, or call me:416-498-8573. -aiattendant(aiattendant); 2001-10-16 {101} (#226484@0)
It actually show up in previous correspondence.
I will need your email address for sending schedule.

Really ? that 's great ! Can I attend urs ? -acezl(笨笨张); 2001-10-18 (#228064@0)
对SEI Level5有兴趣吗？我有这方面的教材和工作经验，愿与大家共享。请联系Lucy @ 905-821-2470 -lixia99(lixia); 2001-12-17 (#302014@0)

@Philadelphia

Update: our guys so far all have more than 5 years IT experiences. Some have more than 10 years overseas working history. Skills include various aspects: C++, VB, DB, Web, Networking, etc. Projects will include…

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